Interview with Tim English
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: I am Rev. Joyce Sommerville and I attend the Macedonia Baptist Church in Mt. Vernon, NY where the Reverend Darren Morton is our Interim Pastor and I am serving there as an Associate Minister. I have been a member of this church since 1963 approximately. I was born in Weldon, North Carolina. I attended Weldon city schools and I went to Elizabeth City State University and received my Bachelor of Science degree in Business Education. And I moved to New York when I graduated from college. And I joined Macedonia Baptist Church, where I am very happy and I have been here ever since. And I received my call to the ministry under the Pastorship of Rev. Richard H. Dixon, Jr. And the odd thing about it is that I didn't believe in women preachers. I was reared in the south and I didn't see much of it when I was there and I it was indoctrinated in me that it was something for men only. But when I got off the "milk" of the word and got on the "meat" of the word, then I understood the word of God. And I said, I don't believe that God is going to send me to hell for preaching the gospel. And of course, I ran. I didn't believe that God would call a young girl who used to stand barefoot on the railroad tracks in North Carolina to preach the gospel, so I ran as long as I could. But I finally received it.
MORRIS: So, you were professed your call to the ministry in the 1990s, but you were called to the ministry in the 1960s. What was going on between that period of time?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: Well, I had gotten married. And I had one child, Carl Sommerville. And I began to work in the church: teach, go to Sunday School, attend Bible Study, I even taught Bible Study, taught Membership Orientation classes, and I became the Director of Christian Education. And I just began to really study the word of God and understand the deepness of the word and why Jesus really had to come and how much He really loves us. And I began to have a desire to win souls and to talk to people and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And it wasn't enough to just teach it or lecture on women's day; I really wanted to have the fullness of proclaiming the word of God. And of course, I had my trials and my struggles and my backsliding, but I finally made up my mind that I just wanted to live for Christ. I just surrendered everything to Him. I wanted to see something in the sky; I wanted to hear an audible voice, but I realized that that wasn't going to happen to everybody. I had the burning and nothing could satisfy this burning; it was only satisfied when I said yes to Christ.
MORRIS: You talked about being Director of Christian Education and taught Sunday School, so there was already a teaching ministry that was going forth. Would you say that there is a difference between a teaching ministry and a preaching ministry?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: Well the Bible says "we should be apt to teach". And so teaching is when you are simply explaining the word of God. It concerns meanings of words and geographical explanations and theological theories, but preaching is when you proclaim it from your soul. It's like a well of living water springing up out of your belly where you just have to get it out. You preach for a verdict. You're not just teaching so people can understand. You are teaching to win somebody. You are preaching to convict someone. You are looking for someone to change their mind, to change their lifestyle, for someone to have a breakthrough.
MORRIS: Anyone who has the knowledge base can teach, but there has to be an experience to preach. Is there any formal training in your background? Did you attend any theological seminary or college?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: I attended Christian Life School of Theology, the Beacon University branch in Mount Vernon out of Columbus, Georgia. I attended for seven years and I receive my associate's degree in Christian Theology and I am still pursuing my Master's from the same school.
MORRIS: You talked about your early start and some of the foundational beliefs that you were taught concerning the role of women in ministry. When and where did you come to the understanding that the role of women was greater than what you were initially taught?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: You know, there was just such a burning in myself. And I thought that women could teach, but I didn't think that women should preach or even be in the pulpit. I knew that the man was the head and I didn't think that women should pastor men or govern over men in any form. But then I remembered when Jesus told Mary Magdalene to go and tell the people that He was the Savior and I said, well He sent her. And then I thought about other women in the Bible: Lydia and Phoebe and Anna. And I began to say, I know He's not going to send me to hell for preaching. All I'm doing is preaching the gospel. And so, I just got that old school out of my head. I'm not trying to boss anyone or trying to govern anyone; I'm just trying to preach the gospel! And then I met so many other women who were preaching and I just decided that I wasn't going to be bound by that any longer.
MORRIS: So, to the woman who believes that she has been called to the ministry, but still has tradition rooted into her, what do you say to her?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: I would just tell her to stay prayerful, to keep serving, to keep studying, and just recognize the anointing (which is the power of the Holy Ghost) that God has put on them and just stay close to Him and if they feel the calling, to just go on with it; don't be discouraged and don't be held back. Your prayer should be, "Lord, put me where you want me to be". And if you are really ready to do it, He will open that door for you.
MORRIS: What final words would you leave with our readers about where the church is today?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: Well, I would just like to say that I don't look at women in ministry as anything sexist (like we are just out for women). We know that the first duty of a woman in ministry is to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to men, women, boys and girls to win souls who are lost.But as a woman, I do feel that women in ministry can help others who have these problems (because our issues are different than men). As a woman, I can speak to women in ways where some male preachers don't dare go. We have different things that men don't go through. And there are so many lonely women, so many widows, so many young, single women, so many divorced women. I look out my window and I see young girls pushing strollers through the snow. You go to the grocery store and see women shopping alone. You go to restaurants and you see all women sitting together. It's like the women have been left to fend for themselves. And I feel that women need a forum to discuss these issues and to be healed. I believe that where the church is now is that we have to come out of the tradition because the generation has changed. I mean, when we were growing up, we didn't see momma in the bed with her boyfriend... we didn't see momma on "dope"... we didn't see them on crack and involved in prostitution. But the children today see it all. So, the church has to come out of the "churchology" and get out there and deal with the problems of today. We are going to have to get our clothes dirty now. It's no longer just singing in the choir, sitting in the meeting discussing corsages and what color we're going to wear when people are dying at the door steps of the church. We have to come out of the church now and hit the streets. The kids are crying out for help while we are in the church celebrating with each other. The church has to "come out of the closet" and hit the streets! VERA BURNETT: I am a minister at Emmanuel Pentecostal Faith Temple, Mt. Vernon, NY and my role there is as Missionary; I am a Missionary Minister (Elder) and that's my primary role.
MORRIS: And how do you define Missionary Minister?
VERA BURNETT: Well, when I was growing up, my mother was a missionary that was involved in foreign missions. She managed and supported foreign missionaries that actually went to other countries. But in Emmanuel we are local missionaries, I should say non-denominational because it does not matter what color, what church you belong to... all you have to do is have the need and we come and minister, in all forms of the ministry. We believe in taking care of the home when it's necessary. We believe in taking care of the physical body when it's necessary, so that we can get you in a position that we can minister to the spirit.
MORRIS: You also said that one of your roles was that of Elder at Emmanuel. Tell us about how that came about? When did you first know that you were called to the ministry? What did that even mean to you, that expression of being called to the ministry?
VERA BURNETT: When I was called to the ministry, I had evidences like everyone else that gets called to the ministry and my thought was Lord, I'm being allowed to do what I want to do as a layman. I was able to visit the sick. I was able to organize. I received from the Lord different... what he wanted me to do in certain areas. And I felt blessed that I was able to do and I had no desire... But it was the Lord whose prompting...at one point, finally, I just so surrendered... I was in my home and I just so surrendered to Him. And I knew the difference. And I said, Well God, I surrender, But why are you telling me? I have a head. And that's all I had to say because when I saw my Pastor [Bishop Leon Dixon] the next time, he said God had woke Him up three times to tell him "Ordain Vera, Ordain Vera, Ordain Vera". I had not sought him or said anything to him about it, so he knew it was of the Lord. And he ordained me. At the time, I was going to Manhattan Bible Institute and the president of the institute (I did consult with him and tell him that I had not sought this) and he said the Lord had showed him also.
MORRIS: We know that also, in addition to these things, you also have a teaching ministry. Would you say that there is a difference between a teaching ministry and a preaching ministry?
VERA BURNETT: God ordained me to teach at a service when I was in South Carolina and he permits me to preach sometimes; but He ordained me to teach. Teaching, some times the Lord will just give me a subject, and I will just stay there in it and stay there in it until I know (as Holy Spirit revealed) whatever that one thing was, until it is exhaustive. And the subject just never ends. He gives me subjects and I'll take a subject and study just one subject and He might not use it for a year or two, but every summer I find that I have different subject that I really work on. And then whenever He wants to use it (He, being Holy Spirit), I'm available.
MORRIS: There are differing points of view as to the role of women in ministry. Much of it is based (even if it is loosely based) on the word of God. What do you see as the role of women in ministry?
VERA BURNETT: I believe the role of women in ministry is the role of anyone in ministry. If you are called and if you are led by the Holy Spirit, then He will define what it is you are supposed to be doing. If we look to mankind to define us, they may have us on the wrong road altogether because certainly I would not have ever picked me to do what God allows me to do. I would never have believed that He would have taken me through some of things that He's allowed me to go through nor be able to bring other people through some of the things that He's allowed me to go through with them. So, it has to be God. And He can pick and choose anyone He wants.
MORRIS: And so based on the information we know people use to justify or limit the roles of women in ministry, what is your Biblical base for knowing that God also calls women as well?
VERA BURNETT: I believe people used to limit women based on "women should not be over men". And I believe that... I just believe that God needs to decide that and I live it at that. Everything regarding ministry, I leave up to Him to decide. I do have scriptures to back my position, but I leave it up to God. So, if you want to tell God that He didn't call me because I am not a man (and I am definitely not a man), then that's between you and God. My job is to be obedient. My job is not to be rebellious. Rebellion is the same as witchcraft. So, my job is not to be rebellious. My job is to be obedient and that's what I decided to do.
MORRIS: What advice would you give to the woman who believes she has been called to the ministry, but may have apprehension based of what a person has told them about their limitations as a woman?
VERA BURNETT: It's a good thing that you have apprehension because when you think you know it all, then no one can tell you anything. But take your direction and leading from the Lord because He's the only one that's going to stand with you; stand behind you. He's the only one that's going to guide you and lead you. So, take your direction from Him. He won't even be contrary to scripture. I can't do anything without Him. I know it's Him. I'm not even a talker! Most preachers have the gift of gab. I didn't have the gift of gab. But if you put me in the word of God, I have an opinion based on how God is leading me and how He's brought me over the years. So, God can choose whoever He wants!
MORRIS: Are there any last words that you'd like to leave with our readers? Anything that's been in your spirit? Anything that's been on your heart that you just want to share with them?
VERA BURNETT: I just know that God is working today. He's got a mighty move. And we all need to be obedient to the spirit. And I very much wish that everybody who's saved and sanctified has a close relationship with Him; not just hearing what other people have to say and put it together. You need a close relationship with Him that he can literally lead you and guide you. And then you can be of use to him. You can hold on and be obedient to Him. But I do that there is a mighty move. And we want to be in the mighty move.
DONNA POWELL: I am a daughter of God. I am an artist. I am a preacher. I'm a teacher. I'm a nerd, but the grown-up word we use is scholar. I am a woman who is very much interested in what it means to live a whole and full life in Jesus. Both in the eternal, but also in the now and I think that was shaped by my experience. I grew up Mt. Vernon; loving parents who always told me that I can do. And in fact, my father was one who would chastise me if I said the word "can't." You know, Marvin Sapp has that that song, "You saw the best in me when others didn't see the best in me." And that is not my testimony. I always had people see the best in me. Thanks be to God. So, I grew up in Mt. Vernon; went to public school in Mt. Vernon until high school and then went to Rye Country Day School in Rye, New York, which is a predominantly white, affluent, private school, which was difficult as a 14 and 15, 16, 17-year old, but in so many ways shapes how I operate in ministry even now. And thinking about who's on the margins in society and whose voice is not being heard. So I did that, went off to NYU to college; was an art major, took a year off after that and then went to Howard and was a photography major in the master's program there. And so what I neglected to say was that I joined the church when I was 14 years and to tell the truth, it wasn't about Jesus. It was about youth group and boys and something to do on a Friday night. But God always has a plan and we thank God for His foresight and foreknowledge even when we don't know. So, I joined the church at 14 and was active in choir and leadership and, truth be told, I could say stuff about Jesus, but I didn't really know Jesus. And at 18, when I thought I was grown, when I started college, I stopped going to church and started going to some other places. Before I finished my graduate degree at Howard, I started going to, a friend had invited me to a church in Langley, Maryland at Reed Temple AME Church and it was there that I heard the Gospel and believed and confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord and so from there, I then moved back from D.C. to New York and became active in my home church. The Bethesda Baptist Church of New Rochelle and just was thirsty for God; thirsty for God's word, thirsty to pray, thirsty to worship, and felt a calling on my life, experienced a calling on my life and wrestled with it and finally, surrendered knowing that there was nothing else that I wanted to do than to serve God and went to seminary and here I am.
MORRIS: And where are you attending right now?
DONNA POWELL: I'm a senior, thanks be to God, at Drew Theological Seminary in Madison, New Jersey and before the next issue comes out after this, I will have graduated.
MORRIS: Now, you talked about wrestling which is a term that you used by so many ministers of the Gospel. How do you define wrestling and just explain to us what that whole process was of wrestling and how you finally yielded to the calling of the Lord.
DONNA POWELL: I experienced my call to Ministry, I would say, much like Samuel where, I had these midnight hour experiences. And so, it started with waking up in the middle of the night and feeling this burden to pray, this press to pray for people and things that I had no idea about. People that I hadn't seen in years, I felt a press to pray. Situations I had no idea about, I was praying for at like 3:00 in the morning, which for me is not an hour, after I stopped partying, I didn't want any parts of anymore. So, it began with this waking up with this press to pray and then it was waking up with this press to read scripture, and then I would journal about it and then, my hands weren't moving fast enough to write down what I was getting from my reading of scriptures, so I was waking up, reading Scripture, pulling out my laptop and typing. And so, after about the seventh time of typing, I printed what I had. I set up a meeting with my Pastor, Dr. Weaver and I said, "Pastor, what are these? What is this?" and he said, "They're sermons. You have a mark on your life." And so, I started crying. We were in the Thruway Diner in New Rochelle and I started crying. And I don't remember exactly why I was crying. I don't know if I was overwhelmed, if I was scared. I don't remember...
MORRIS: All of the above.
DONNA POWELL: Yes, all of the above. Excited! So, that was in 2004, I believe, in the spring of 2004 and I preached at our women's day service, at our 10:30 service in October of 2004. And that was the first time that a non-clergy person spoke at a major service during the 10:30 worship hour. And the Lord just did a mighty work in that. From the preparation to the experience of preaching for me, but still I wasn't ready to give up the vision I had for my own life. I wanted to be married; I wanted my career to go a certain way. I saw these things for my life and I didn't know how being in ministry fit into my plan for my life, as if my plan for my life is the ultimate plan. And so, I didn't see how it fit and so, I was still going to church, still excited for the Lord, still worshipping and praising, still going to bible study, still thirsty, but on some level, was ignoring the tug. And I think there comes a point when you ignore the tug long enough that either God stops tugging for a while or you become so desensitized to the tug that you don't feel it anymore. But here I am!
MORRIS: You are finishing actually your senior year.
DONNA POWELL: Yes.
MORRIS: At Drew?
DONNA POWELL: Yes.
MORRIS: Here's the question: What's next?
DONNA POWELL: In the immediate: God knows. Graduation is May 15th. God knows what will happen on May 16th. In terms of the immediate, God knows and I believe God. By no means, do I believe that God has brought me this far in all of the experiences that I've had... in seminary, in my wrestling with the call, in teaching, in being an artist, in being a lover of hip-hop (that's something I didn't say, but it also shapes who I am in ministry), so, I don't think that God has brought me this far through all of those experiences (as a daughter, as a sister, as a friend) to have me sitting around doing nothing after graduation. Some of the things that I do know are kind of things that are on the horizon. I love "The Word" and I love words and so writing a book is something that I know will happen and will happen in the near future because I'm already working on it. I'm living it. I'm jotting things down. So that's something I know that will happen. You know, I said earlier that I'm a nerd a.k.a. scholar and so I know that I have a passion for learning and for education and so a Ph.D. is in my future, and not just for learning's sake but to the glory of God. So that, there can be voices in our seminaries and in our colleges and universities of faithful people who are teaching those who will go on to be pastors and teachers and missionaries and those who will go on and work in various kinds of ministry. So, it's not just because I want to sit around and read books all day although I'd love that, but it's to the glory of God. So, I know that's in the future. We hope there's a husband and some babies in the future, some artwork to be birthed, but all to the glory of God. So, you know, the immediate specifics, I don't know, but I trust God. God had a plan for when I thought I was joining the church for the Youth Group and boys way back in the day, I know God has a plan even now.
MORRIS: Right. With that being said, I think that a segue for you to speak, if you would, speak to the man or woman of God who is clear that God has a direction for them and that is in pursuit of that, but does not know what that next step is. What would you say to that reader who's there, but is not as comfortable as they believe they should be in that process of not knowing what their next step would be?
DONNA POWELL: First, I have to say that as we are talking now I'm quite comfortable, but I have my days where I'm not comfortable. I have my days where I cry and I ask God will you show me something, not that I don't believe, but will you show me something. And so, I would say, even as your questioning be comforted that God hears your questions. The second thing I would say, is thinking about the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus talks about God's provision and how God provides for the birds in the air and how the lilies of the fields, they don't do any work, but they are splendid and how they are taken care of and just how much more God will take care of us. And the way it ends is beautiful in Gospel of Matthew, he says sufficient for each day are today's struggles number one, but then number two, Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all things will be added unto you. And so the answer I would give for one to remain sure and the way that I remain sure and can speak with confidence now is that I just need to do what I need to do today, seeking God's kingdom and when we do that, there comes a point where we'll look back and realize that we've been doing some things and God has brought us to some places that we didn't have to fret about to get to because we were seeking his kingdom and he took care of us, he made the way. And that's not to say that you don't do anything in planning and preparation, but even in the planning and preparation, God will lead us. It's just about seeking God and being open to hearing God and trusting God to say, "I don't have to know because I know that you know".
MORRIS: Right, right. Excellent. Switching gears for a moment. I want to discuss women in ministry. We know that they have varying points of view as to what the role of women in ministry is, actually. What do you see as the role of women in ministry? And then also, if you could also just provide some scriptural foundation for the conclusion that you come up with.
DONNA POWELL: First, is I absolutely support women in Ministry. And believe that women are called to ministry. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here on the phone with you. I mean, I wouldn't have answered a call that didn't exist. And that call was so heavy and so real. And I know some women who have difficulty with the idea of women in Ministry because they've been taught that, but even if I was one of those women, this call was so strong that I wouldn't be able to deny it anymore.
So that's the first thing. In terms of some of my scriptural understanding or the role of women, I think it's the prophet Joel who says I'll pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons AND daughters shall prophecy. And the role of the prophet is to proclaim the Good News of the Lord. It's that call that Isaiah makes that Jesus follows up, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me to preach the Good News... to proclaim" that's the role of the prophet... "To release the captives, to set free those who are bound, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord". And your sons and your daughters will do that.
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: I am Rev. Joyce Sommerville and I attend the Macedonia Baptist Church in Mt. Vernon, NY where the Reverend Darren Morton is our Interim Pastor and I am serving there as an Associate Minister. I have been a member of this church since 1963 approximately. I was born in Weldon, North Carolina. I attended Weldon city schools and I went to Elizabeth City State University and received my Bachelor of Science degree in Business Education. And I moved to New York when I graduated from college. And I joined Macedonia Baptist Church, where I am very happy and I have been here ever since. And I received my call to the ministry under the Pastorship of Rev. Richard H. Dixon, Jr. And the odd thing about it is that I didn't believe in women preachers. I was reared in the south and I didn't see much of it when I was there and I it was indoctrinated in me that it was something for men only. But when I got off the "milk" of the word and got on the "meat" of the word, then I understood the word of God. And I said, I don't believe that God is going to send me to hell for preaching the gospel. And of course, I ran. I didn't believe that God would call a young girl who used to stand barefoot on the railroad tracks in North Carolina to preach the gospel, so I ran as long as I could. But I finally received it.
MORRIS: So, you were professed your call to the ministry in the 1990s, but you were called to the ministry in the 1960s. What was going on between that period of time?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: Well, I had gotten married. And I had one child, Carl Sommerville. And I began to work in the church: teach, go to Sunday School, attend Bible Study, I even taught Bible Study, taught Membership Orientation classes, and I became the Director of Christian Education. And I just began to really study the word of God and understand the deepness of the word and why Jesus really had to come and how much He really loves us. And I began to have a desire to win souls and to talk to people and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And it wasn't enough to just teach it or lecture on women's day; I really wanted to have the fullness of proclaiming the word of God. And of course, I had my trials and my struggles and my backsliding, but I finally made up my mind that I just wanted to live for Christ. I just surrendered everything to Him. I wanted to see something in the sky; I wanted to hear an audible voice, but I realized that that wasn't going to happen to everybody. I had the burning and nothing could satisfy this burning; it was only satisfied when I said yes to Christ.
MORRIS: You talked about being Director of Christian Education and taught Sunday School, so there was already a teaching ministry that was going forth. Would you say that there is a difference between a teaching ministry and a preaching ministry?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: Well the Bible says "we should be apt to teach". And so teaching is when you are simply explaining the word of God. It concerns meanings of words and geographical explanations and theological theories, but preaching is when you proclaim it from your soul. It's like a well of living water springing up out of your belly where you just have to get it out. You preach for a verdict. You're not just teaching so people can understand. You are teaching to win somebody. You are preaching to convict someone. You are looking for someone to change their mind, to change their lifestyle, for someone to have a breakthrough.
MORRIS: Anyone who has the knowledge base can teach, but there has to be an experience to preach. Is there any formal training in your background? Did you attend any theological seminary or college?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: I attended Christian Life School of Theology, the Beacon University branch in Mount Vernon out of Columbus, Georgia. I attended for seven years and I receive my associate's degree in Christian Theology and I am still pursuing my Master's from the same school.
MORRIS: You talked about your early start and some of the foundational beliefs that you were taught concerning the role of women in ministry. When and where did you come to the understanding that the role of women was greater than what you were initially taught?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: You know, there was just such a burning in myself. And I thought that women could teach, but I didn't think that women should preach or even be in the pulpit. I knew that the man was the head and I didn't think that women should pastor men or govern over men in any form. But then I remembered when Jesus told Mary Magdalene to go and tell the people that He was the Savior and I said, well He sent her. And then I thought about other women in the Bible: Lydia and Phoebe and Anna. And I began to say, I know He's not going to send me to hell for preaching. All I'm doing is preaching the gospel. And so, I just got that old school out of my head. I'm not trying to boss anyone or trying to govern anyone; I'm just trying to preach the gospel! And then I met so many other women who were preaching and I just decided that I wasn't going to be bound by that any longer.
MORRIS: So, to the woman who believes that she has been called to the ministry, but still has tradition rooted into her, what do you say to her?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: I would just tell her to stay prayerful, to keep serving, to keep studying, and just recognize the anointing (which is the power of the Holy Ghost) that God has put on them and just stay close to Him and if they feel the calling, to just go on with it; don't be discouraged and don't be held back. Your prayer should be, "Lord, put me where you want me to be". And if you are really ready to do it, He will open that door for you.
MORRIS: What final words would you leave with our readers about where the church is today?
JOYCE SOMMERVILLE: Well, I would just like to say that I don't look at women in ministry as anything sexist (like we are just out for women). We know that the first duty of a woman in ministry is to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to men, women, boys and girls to win souls who are lost.
But as a woman, I do feel that women in ministry can help others who have these problems (because our issues are different than men). As a woman, I can speak to women in ways where some male preachers don't dare go. We have different things that men don't go through. And there are so many lonely women, so many widows, so many young, single women, so many divorced women. I look out my window and I see young girls pushing strollers through the snow. You go to the grocery store and see women shopping alone. You go to restaurants and you see all women sitting together. It's like the women have been left to fend for themselves. And I feel that women need a forum to discuss these issues and to be healed. I believe that where the church is now is that we have to come out of the tradition because the generation has changed. I mean, when we were growing up, we didn't see momma in the bed with her boyfriend... we didn't see momma on "dope"... we didn't see them on crack and involved in prostitution. But the children today see it all. So, the church has to come out of the "churchology" and get out there and deal with the problems of today. We are going to have to get our clothes dirty now. It's no longer just singing in the choir, sitting in the meeting discussing corsages and what color we're going to wear when people are dying at the door steps of the church. We have to come out of the church now and hit the streets. The kids are crying out for help while we are in the church celebrating with each other. The church has to "come out of the closet" and hit the streets!
Donna: We are here for an interview for the fall edition of the Good News Letter. Thank you so much for joining us.You are wife, mother, writer, businesswoman, and most importantly, a disciple of Christ. So let's talk a little bit about who you are, so our readers can get a feel for who you are and where you grew up.
Roschelle: Oh, man, who am I? I'm an ordinary woman who loves Jesus more than life. I was born and raised in Jamaica and I came to the United States at the age of 12. My mom was here for four years prior and she sponsored us and we all came here.I grew up in the church, you know, like most Caribbean folk.I lived a consistent Christian life as a teenager up until about my last year of high school. And then I was watching life and wondering what am I missing in the world.I was old enough to make my own decisions and I walked away from the church.You know the rest of the story.Not long after I came back to Christ and I rededicated my life to him, and there's no way I'm going back. I don't need to look back.I've had my fill
Donna: Okay. Let's see, We want to know a little bit about your life. You're an author with your first book out entitled "Night Before Dawn". Talk to us a little bit about what inspired "Night Before Dawn".
Roschelle: I wish I could give this really great story, like I was inspired by the struggle of another woman. It really wasn't like that at all. What happened, honestly, was that I went to a Mother's Day brunch at my mother's friend's house and there was this woman there, she was telling me about this dream.She dreamt that the sky had opened up and this light came through and it was the Lord. And she got hysterical. She kept screaming, "I'm not ready. I'm not ready".You know, and that really scared me so much, it never left me. Can you imagine if that was real and you tell the Lord that you're not ready? It [the dream] stayed with me so much that one day I was on my job, so bored, that I put the work aside and I decided I was gonna pen that dream.I penned it, added more things to it and it just took on a life of itself.God just kept giving me more and more and more.You'll find a little bit of what I did when I was a child and other little stories, but the story as a whole came from Heaven. I can honestly say that. I mean the Holy Spirit inspired me.
Donna: Excellent! Were you a writer before you started writing this book, or did you call yourself a writer?
Roschelle: Not outright. I have a love for writing.I wasn't good at math, so I had a love for the English language.My mother was a teacher in Jamaica when we were growing up.I used to write short stories.I kept a journal all through high school.But I wouldn't say, "I'm a writer," or even that I aspired to be that.So it's just probably like something that was deeply planted inside of me and began to stir as I got older...
Donna: So it's part of your divine purpose.Let's talk about the power of words and the power of the Word.God spoke life into existence through the Word.I admire writers because of the tools that you use. It's very much like the creative process of God. How long was the process, from the day you wrote the dream to the day the final manuscript was ready?
Roschelle: Okay, the story began in October of 2002 when I first started to pen the dream and he story ended on December 19th of 2005.Up until early April of 2008 we were still dotting I's and crossing T's.I got the book in my hand on April 30th of this year.
Donna: So what was that process like?
Roschelle: It wasn't smooth.There were times that I got really, really discouraged. I would get like halfway done and lose my inspiration. I'd say [to God], "I can't do this without you." I would cop pleas with the Holy Spirit, "Help me out, I need you." Then there was a time, I'll share this brief testimony, when I was like, "God, maybe I have to stop this." I'd start on another project. And I'd ask for a sign. If you want me to go work with this, just give me a sign. I need that right now. And I got online. And initially the title of the book was "Just Before Dawn" from the adage "The darkest part of the night is just before dawn." So I went online and I looked up "Just Before Dawn" to see if anybody else had done that.There was a book called "Just Before Dawn" and the author's name was Rochelle Alers and I freaked. Because Roschelle it's sort of an uncommon name.For her first name to have been same as my first name, and her title the same as my title, I said, "Holy Ghost, I got you." I hear you loud and clear.So whenever it needed to be put down, it got put down and when the Holy Ghost said pick up a pen, I'd wake up in the middle of the night and write. And that's how it, you know, the process continued. It wasn't very easy, but I did it. And the two years that it took too for editing and publishing I look back now and I see that its God's time. And nothing happens before God's time, no matter what. (I have to share the testimony. And really I don't share it often, but I will. I remember I was going through a really rough time. I lost my job.I was unemployed and just literally living by faith. Financially struggling.I was a single mother and just literally going through. And I remember one year I got a refund check from the government for tax refund for $1,000. And that was how much it cost to publish the book.I finished the book on December 19th and I got the refund check the following April.I got the money and I'm gonna go forward to publish this book.God said, "That money is not for you to publish the book." And I was like, what? That money is for you to sow into a ministry.And the Holy Spirit just kept prodding at me, and prodding at me, and prodding at me. So finally I knew it was God and out of obedience, not because I really wanted to, I surrendered. I gave that money and I thought that once I sowed that, then double portions were going to come in instantly. Six months later, I'm saying, "God, nothing's happening.Where are you Father?" A year passed and I got upset.I have nothing. I was just going off.I wasn't disrespectful, but it was just like, God, I'm hurting.I'm telling you now that you cannot out give God.God is indebted to no one.Aafter that, because I had that seed in the ground so much more was able to come forth, not only the money from the book come forth, but God provided editors for me to edit my book for free. My wedding, you know, that's another story, was paid for.God just did everything, you know.So that's part of the process.
Donna: That reminds me, you said a lot of different things. But I always think of the Scripture that says pressed down, shaken together and running over with the same measure that you give, God is gonna give back to you.It's not always the same exact thing. You might give money, God gives you time. You might give energy, and God gives you money. Whatever it is, you can't beat God giving. But when you were talking about the vision and the timing.Timing is something that's really important. I think that's something that's hard for the people of God to understand, because we live in a microwave and 30 second commercial society. Yeah, you now TiVo past the commercial.
Roschelle: Yes. Yes.
Donna: And I'm thinking of Habbukuk where it says to write the vision and make it plain.
Roschelle: That's what kept me going.
Donna: Though it tarry, wait for it. Along those lines, your testimony is encouraging me right now more than you can even realize.But this is not about me.So, okay, so the title was "Just Before Dawn" and the book that I'm holding in my hand is "Night Before Dawn". What happened?
Roschelle: Well, of course, because Roschelle Alers had "Just Before Dawn" I didn't want them to get confused with, at the time, Roschelle Salmon.
Donna: Yes. Congratulations.
Roschelle: Thank you.
Donna: We'll talk about that too.
Roschelle: Roschelle Sammons versus Rochelle Alers.I was like, how am I gonna fix this? And I went over the adage again, "The darkest part of the night is just before dawn." What's just before dawn? Night. "Night Before Dawn." So and it spoke to me, the reason why this title came up in the first place was because when I was going through, my father would tell me that, "Roschelle, just hold on." You know, I mean he's not a man of the Word, so he wouldn't say, weeping may endure for a night but joy comes in the morning, which is just another way of saying, the darkest part of the night, when you're going through that hardest part of your life, that rough... that rough patch, that night, that dark period, dawn is just on the horizon.I've seen that, even in the natural, the darkest part of the night is right before dawn breaks.So if you read the book, it's two-fold, you know, that's how the title was... born.
Donna: Okay, excellent. We won't talk too much about the book, because we want the people to go out and buy the book and read it for themselves.So I think we'll leave the dawn at that. I'm interested, because this is actually my first Christian fiction book that I've read.
Roschelle: Really? Oh, so excited.
Donna: I read a lot, yes, I read a lot of non-fiction.
Roschelle: Okay.
Donna: And a lot of Ministry books but I've never read a Christian fiction book before. Why fiction? Why not take the dream and use another genre to communicate.
Roschelle: Excellent question. I don't know, I'm a storyteller and I come from a line of storytellers, you know.And I wanted to... because, honestly, ministry books are great, and I... and I have... I read ministry books.I just kind of wanted to form a story and minister in that way. I just wanted to try something different and I wanted to take whatever was on the inside of me and give it back. To be honest with you, I always thought about... when I was growing up I was like, God, I really don't have any talents. But, you know, I can run, I used to run track for New Roschelle High School.I was good at that. I'm like, well, how can I use track to glorify you? And I'm sure there was a way that I could use it to glorify God, but I couldn't see it. And I was like, well, what do I have to give to you? You know, I don't wanna be like that guy in the bible where he buried the talent.I want to have something to give back to you. Whatever you give to me, I want to be able to say, Father, this is what I've done with what you've given to me.I used what was inside of me to just, to allow God to use that for his glory, and to minister to his people. That's why I use the art of storytelling to bring forth a work that would minister to the body of Christ.
Donna: Right, right. And I think that's excellent for a number of reasons.Jesus told stories.He didn't always sit down and say, you know, do this, do that.He said, well, you know, let me tell you a little story. So I know that sometimes you just have to make it plain. I think the witnessing and testimony are really important. And for Christian fiction about somebody to connect with a character and feel what they feel and get the lesson without it being three points and a close. You can read about redemption and feel like the character... without necessarily being told to do this or that.I think it makes it more real for people.So I'm glad that it's fiction. I'm excited about that. Who's your favorite character in the book?
Roschelle: Honestly, Courtney.I liked her, I did. I have been that friend that's been rejected and it hurts. You know, it hurts when you were close to someone and you try to explain so much. Like, listen, I'm still me, and I still love you and I still wanna be friends, it's just I have Jesus now. And they can't relate to you. And it's almost like you really, really have to choose. There is no compromise.And I had to say, y'all didn't die on the cross for me, so peace.You know, it wasn't that cut and dry. At first it was very hard.I've been that friend to be rejected, because of Jesus Christ.And, I don't know, I just liked Courtney. She is forgiving and she's my favorite.
Donna: Yeah, yeah. I enjoyed her too. That's something that I think that, you know, we as people of God struggle with. And, you know Tye Tribbett talks about on the new CD "Stand Out." So there's a standard and are you going to be like Lot's wife looking back, or are you like the man that put his hand to the plow or are you saying I'm gonna trust Jesus and follow Jesus no matter what? And what I love about the character, I don't wanna give away too much of the book, but I love the way, the fact that she stood up for Christ and held to the standard.She was able to maintain her integrity and still be there for her friend when her friend needed it.
Roschelle: Yeah.
Donna: Sometimes we'll say, well, you know, I'll waiver a little bit and then as soon as our friend comes to Christ, they know that we weren't being who we were supposed to be in Christ.
Donna: Who was the hardest character for you to create? Or who did you have the most trouble with as you were writing? Who did you fight with? Who did you wrestle with?
Roschelle: I wrestled with Gina.That's a good question.I don't know anybody who has struggled with addiction.So I had to do my research.And I also struggled with Dr.Val because I am not a physician.I literally had to do research and make sure that I knew what I was talking about.
Donna: Right.
Roschelle: But back to Gina. Yeah, I don't know anyone who struggled with addiction. But as someone who has struggled with sexual...I don't know how deep you can get.
Donna: Oh, we can go deep.
Roschelle: ...who had been healed from sexual molestation as a child.I wanted to give a part of that. I wanted to touch on that, because it is so prevalent.And sometimes we're so quick to judge people, and I too am guilty of that, and we don't know where they've been.As far as Gina's concerned, I mean she has struggled.We see why she was the way he was.It doesn't really excuse it, but it explains it.And so that was a big challenge.I wanted her to be real.So I think that was like the hardest.
Donna: Okay. Okay. That was good that you said that, because we see where she had been.We see where Bre and Eric had been.I'm still struggling with Monique and the redemption piece, but, you know we don't want to give away too much.But we see where they were, but we also see for most of the characters the transformation that happen in all of them, which is what sets Night Before Dawn apart from other fiction books.
Roschelle: Right.
Donna: Like, you know, you have the reality of life but you also have the reality of Christ.
Roschelle: That's right. That's good.I've read other Christian fiction before. And like honestly it's, forgive me for saying this, too holy.It's like unrealistic.You know, everything is about the Bible. Like we're walking around and talking like the Book of Amos.People don't do that all the time.You know what I mean? It's just not real to me.I understand where the others are coming from, they wanna minster the Word. But it's like, okay, but that really doesn't happen.I didn't want to perpetuate something that wasn't real.I wanted something that was real. And I... there's one author in mind, Ryan Phillips, and her stuff is pretty decent. But like I said, I've read several others. And they're good stories, I'm just like, ah, great. You know, or it's way left. It's like this is not even based on the Word. Like where are you getting these ideas.
Donna: Yeah. So it's a good balance of the Word and the reality of life.
Donna: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the book, but sort of in a roundabout way. You mentioned before that you're a wife and a mother and I know when the book was being conceived and was being written that you were a mom then.And I know that the demands on a working mother, or a mother in general are really, really tough. Like how did you make time in that two year span to even get the book written? And...
Roschelle: Well, actually it was more like a three and a half year spa and I don't remember writing, being able to write that frequently, honestly.I didn't have time.When my son was in school I'd stay home. I'd go to the library, I'd find little areas where I could go to be quiet. I would sit outside in the backyard and just finish.I think I was halfway by September writing about Gina.And then by December it was done.. That last stretch came in between September and December. I mean it wasn't easy, no, because my son is very demanding, as all children are, they need that attention. But, you know, I did it, with the help of the grace of God.
Donna: We're going put in a quick plug.Your website is http://www.readywriterIam.com . Okay. You are a ready writer and you have one book completed.What's next?
Roschelle: That's a good question.It's called "The Kinsman Redeemer" and it is a novel.The kinsman redeemer is Christ.It's a completely different direction than "Night Before Dawn in that it is still a novel, but, the story itself is about a woman who's married and lost her husband lives with her mother-in-law.Her mother in law went back to her home.So it's kind of like the story of Ruth fictionalized but more modern and what happens in today's day.. I don't know how it is going to turn out. I feel the same way as I did with "Night Before Dawn." I sometimes say "Lord, maybe I should just trash it and start again." But the Lord won't let me give it up.
Donna: Oh, no, I don't think you should. You're a ready writer. I'm a ready reader.I love that story. And, you know, that story is great by itself.Imagine what will happen when it's 300 pages long and filled with, what my pastor calls, Holy Ghost imagination.
Donna: Okay. So you're writing now. When did you start working on Kinsman Redeemer?
Roschelle: Believe it or not, I started it in '06.I'm telling you, I'm five chapters in and I've been in the same place for like a year.But now I'm getting the inspiration, honestly. So I have my tape recorder and I'm putting the ideas on the tape recorder, so that when I go home I can work on them.
Donna: Okay. And so it seems like as a ready writer you have to be ready at all times, because, you know, it [inspiration] can 3:00 a.m., the midnight hour, it could be on your drive to work, it can be on a walk it can be, you know, having a conversation with a co-worker.
Roschelle: That's right. That's right. Right.
Donna: Okay. So shifting gears a little bit. I think it's important for our readers to know that we're, you know, we don't just do one thing.We do many things. So talk a little bit about what's going on in your life. When you started the book you were Roschelle Salmon and now you're Roschelle McKenzie.Congratulations!
Roschelle: Thank you. Thank you so much. July 7th of this year was one year.
Donna: Praise the Lord!
Roschelle: Praise the Lord, alleluia! So I've been married for a year now and to a wonderful, wonderful husband, Kurt McKenzie.Who, man, I'm telling you, God is awesome. During a time when I was Roschelle Salmon I had made a vow to the Lord, and like I said, I didn't do it right the first time. And I had a son outside of the covenant marriage. And I vowed to the Lord, when I rededicated my life back to Jesus I said, "Father, I promise I will wait on you this time." I will wait on you for as long as it takes for you to bring my husband to me 'Cause I didn't care how long it took, but it was God's desire for me was to not be married, then I would ask you to remove that desire from my heart. Because there is that desire. So, God, there's so many testimonies. This church that I listen to on WMCA [my current church] was going to Israel. And I always wanted to go to Israel. And I wasn't working at the time and I was like, I want to go to Israel. The Lord opened up the opportunity, got the money for me to go to Israel.
Donna: Wow.
Roschelle: Yeah, yeah. I've been there twice.We're going back this year. The Lord opened up the opportunity and I went to Israel. And I was with these three people that I didn't know and I didn't care. I wanted to be where Jesus was, where Jesus walked. And this woman, I met this woman there and we just made the connection to each other. I think we were in Tiberais and we were walking along the sea of Galilee, and we were talking. She was telling me about her son. I'm like, "Oh, that's nice," you know, and we're just sharing information, you know. And when we got back to New York I just felt the Lord transitioning me and I spoke to my pastor in like the current church I was in and she said, " the Lord laid it on my heart that you'd be leaving us." We prayed and I was released with her blessing to my current ministry. The woman she kept telling me about her son. Like, "I want you to meet my son," and I'm like, "Oh." And I finally said Okay and I'm married to her son today, and it's just been wonderful. He loves my son. My son calls him Daddy.And it's just... it's just God.
Donna: And it's the plan that he has for you. Okay. So we're over time, but I want to ask you about your trip to Israel.I'm not sure how we'll be able to weave it in, but what was it like to walk where Jesus walked and to, I mean, well, just to be there?
Roschelle: Life changing. They say that every Muslim should make a trip to Mecca.So I say every Christian should go to Jerusalem before they leave this earth, if it's at all possible. And if it's not possible for them financially, they need to believe God for the money because God will give you every penny.I didn't have a job.I didn't have a red cent.And the Lord gave me the funds to go. So that's no excuse.You have to operate your faith.Israel was awesome. It was literally life changing. I was baptized in the Jordan River.
Donna: Wow.
Roschelle: It's like, it was, well, I can't even describe it. You know we were able to walk where Jesus walked. You know,the Sea of Galilee, where he walked and the water that the walked on.Capernum.I mean just, it was just, it was awesome.It was awesome and life changing to be on Mount Olive where he gave the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount.We also went into Egypt, we climbed Mount Sinai.
Donna: Wow.
Roschelle: It was just totally life changing. And I would recommend it. You will never be the same again. We went to the Wailing Wall. I think I that's where I put in the rock for my husband.I went to the Garden of Gethsemene where Jesus prayed.
Donna: How was your walk affected when you came home? After something like that you're not the same.
Roschelle: You're not the same. No, you're not. I mean the way that you read the bible changes.And it's, like I say, it just, it strengthens your faith. And it just... it just changes everything. It just makes everything so much stronger. It just solidifies you.
Donna: We have a question that we ask our readers. When you pray who and what do you pray for?
Roschelle: Right now? In this season? In this season I pray for our nation. I pray for God's intervention in everything that's coming in the earth. The signs of the times are all around us, and I'm very, very conscious of that. I pray for lost souls there is such a burden in my heart for them.Sometimes when I walk around, like I'll just I'll start to cry, because they literally look like cattle to me.They have no concept of what's going on. They're so spiritually blinded and I pray God opens their eyes.I also pray for our nation and the direction we're going. You know, I'm neither Republican nor Democratic. I want God, I need God to put the right person in office right now, you know. I mean we can't afford for the wrong man to go in office and so I pray for God's intervention as far as our upcoming election.I mean also I pray for my family, I pray for everything else. In this hour the cry of my heart is for America.I pray for my country, Jamaica, as well.Jamaica needs peace as much as America does. And I also pray for the Kingdom of God to just go forth and take it by force.Just be bold with the Gospel of Jesus, you know.
Donna: For someone who has a vision that God has given then, and they're waiting on it.What advice would you offer?
Roschelle: I encourage you to encourage yourself in the Lord.I mean it sounds corny and clich'e. But honestly, the Word of God cannot lie. It must accomplish what it says.Otherwise it would mean that God is a liar, and I have proven that He is not.So if God has promised you something, I encourage you to literally make it like the air you breathe.Like let it be your oxygen.Don't let it go, because if you lose faith, and if you lose your hope in the vision, what else is there? Whatever God has promised you, a husband, career, a child, a vision, anything, anything, you just say "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it." God is not a man that He should lie.God be true. And everything else, every devil, every man, every demon is a liar.
Donna: Amen.We are going to end on that.We thank you so much for your time.God bless you!
Morris: Alright. We're here with Elder Tim English, who were going to feature for this month's good news letter and we're excited about this interview. He's an awesome man of God. We want you to tell us about yourself, where you're going, and anything else you want our reader's to know about you. So we're just going to start off by welcoming you. Thank you for doing this interview.
Elder English: Thanks... thank you, great to be here.
Morris: It's wonderful to have you here. We're going to give our readers a brief overview of who you are, where you came from, your background and where you are today. And then we'll keep it flowing after that.
Elder English: Okay. Well, I have several versions, you know, I've got the long version.
Morris: Tell it all.
Elder English: The Reader's Digest condensed version.
Morris: (laughter) Right, right.
Elder English: I was born, you know, to a Godly Christian family. And I mean, I always say that I was born in the church, you know. My earliest recollection of anything has been church. And I was raised by my grandmother, who was Mother Horne. And she was an incredible pioneer in the 50's and 60's; doing things in Harlem and actually all across the Eastern United States, from New York to Georgia. And I grew up in that environment. I was a kid when I started church, you know. And that's been my whole life. And I preached my first sermon when I was 12, you know. And it wasn't ‘cause I felt like, “God told me to,” it was ‘cause my grandmother said, “Jesus was in the church preaching at 12, so you're gonna preach at 12.”
Morris: Wow.
Elder English: “Because you're gonna be like Jesus.”
Morris: Wow.
Elder English: And the funny thing is I was terrified. And I remember leading up to it, you know. This 12 year old kid and, I mean, I had diarrhea, and I was throwing up. I was physically ill.
Morris: Right.
Elder English: And I remember standing up there in front of these people, it was in Newark, New Jersey. And I would say there was maybe 500, 600 people there.
Morris: Wow.
Elder English And all I saw was eyeballs. These people were looking at me. But God had spoken something to me. And I learned then that He talks. Cause I remember saying to him, “I don't know what to say to these people. Matter of fact, I didn't even ask to do this.” I was rather comfortable, ‘cause I was a musician, playing trumpet, playing keyboards. You know, we had a little band and we used to travel around. And then, here I am. And he gave me this message and a revelation I'll never forget, that says “He that is holy, let him be holy still. He that is righteous, let him be righteous still.” And that was what he told me to say to those people at 12 years old. “Don't shake from where you are. If you already, have decided to be a holy man of God, or a holy woman of God, if you are, then stay right here.” But when I stood up there, the only thing that came out of my mouth was, “Be holy still. Be holy still.” My friends said I said it 500 times. “Be holy still. Be holy still. Be holy still. Be holy still.”
Morris: That's alright. that's a message…
Elder English: Yeah… that was the launching of being in public ministry. And, of course, you know, I went to bible school, and was starting churches and having church meetings, and overseeing churches at 16, 17 years old. Whenever there was an issue at a church, I was sent to go fix it. You know, so I learned so much. I learned so much from my grandmother about how to impact the community.
Morris: Right.
Elder English: Cause I believe that's the whole essence of the church, is that we're supposed to be relevant. There ought to be something happening in our community if we're (the church) here, you know. And if there's a whole bunch of churches in a community and the community is not being impacted, somebody's going to have to answer to that. You understand?
Morris: Right… That's right.
Elder English: But that ain't what we're supposed to be talking about, but that's in my heart right now.
Morris: You can talk about it. Talk about it all. That's good stuff.
So, we have the start… we have the start at 12. What happened after that, what transpired? Did you continue on that path?
Elder English: Well, I did for a while and I was really committed to the Lord. And when I got out of bible school, was when things started to turn for me. It's kind of funny, because I was sent to Charleston, South Carolina because there was an issue going on with a church down there. And I was sent to help and I was just a kid... I wasn't even 18. And so I'm down there in Charleston. There was an issue going on, a split in the church. I had so much going on myself. My grandmother had just died a year or so prior to that. And so I was still wrestling, in fact, I was grappling with how much of my relationship with God was tied up with her. Because there were times when I wanted to hear from God and I couldn't hear Him, I'd go talk to her. And it was the equivalent. You know what I mean? Now she's gone, so I was wrestling with that. I was wrestling with, you know, not knowing His voice like I thought I did. Anyway, I remember I was walking down the street in Charleston, South Carolina, King Street. I hated being there. I did not want to be there. It didn't seem like I was having any results, you know, talking to people and having services there. It was in the middle of the day and there was a Navy recruiting, you know, one of those Armed Forces all-in-one recruiting stations. I walked inside and I saw the deep blue sea. And something inside of me said, “I'm out of here! I'm out.” Without thought, the next thing I knew I had signed.
Morris: Wow.
Elder English: I took the test right there on the spot. And they're like, "You can choose wherever you want to go. What do you want to do?" I said, "Let me do the Navy, I love water." So I signed up with the Navy. I wanted to do something with computer sciences. So I got picked, because I guess I did so well on the test. But what I see now is that the enemy has an alternative plan. On the surface, it looks successful. And it looks like, oh, this is a good thing. Because everything from that point on when I signed on the dotted line, everything I touched worked. Everything I did worked. But it was working in the wrong direction. You understand?
Morris: Right.
Elder English: But it worked. It was almost like I had an anointing. It's the craziest thing. Because when I signed on the dotted line and I was off, they said, "Okay, you're going to leave," I think it was like January or February after the New Year, I was going to be going to boot camp. And I was excited. So I went back to the church where I was staying and I was telling my aunt who lives down there, "Hey, I just joined the Navy." And they freaked out. "You did what?" They called up there and they were like, "You gotta let him go. He's a man of God. He's called to preach." They're like, "Oh, no, no, he signed. He's going." And I did it, went off to boot camp. And I remember the first day when they woke us up, they were throwing garbage cans, and all kinds of stuff. And I thought what did I do? Alright, I went to the drill instructor and I said, "You know what, on second thought, I realize I don't' want to do this." He's like, "You signed up for six years, okay." And that began the whole thing. And it started a downward slide for me because now I was stationed on a ship in Japan... never been out of the country. So, I'm traveling all over Japan and Africa. And I forgot all about God. I got caught up. And was successfully caught up... I got caught up in drugs, and black market stuff, you know. And it's a funny thing, because I always had an entrepreneurial spirit that I realize now was a gift. But it was stained and twisted because I saw opportunities... We were shipping stuff wholesale, we were mass producing, you know, videos and selling them in Japan. And the craziest thing, everything worked. It worked.
Morris: Right.
Elder English: Money was flowing, stuff was happening, drugs in and out. What I didn't realize is that it was a set up. I was being investigated and I didn't know it. And to make a long story short, it all came crashing down. And then when I went to get out and I thought I was going to be discharged, that's when they said, "Well, you're under arrest." And I was like, "Under arrest for what?" And they brought out this whole sheet of allegations; Drug trafficking across international waters. And it sounded so intense.
Morris: Right.
Elder English: So I'm standing there panicking because the whole time I was doing all this crazy stuff, I was never confronted with the result of my actions. And then, boom, there it was. They told me I couldn't leave the ship. They took my ID card. You had to have ID to get on and off the ship. They told me I couldn't leave the ship pending a court marshal and an investigation. And I was like, you know what, I'm getting out of here.
Morris: Out of there.
Elder English: Yeah. So I had some friends make me a fake ID. I got a fake ID and got off the ship and lived in Japan. A man of God called to preach...
Morris: Wow.
Elder English: In Japan, I get a call that my aunt died. And it was like, okay, you need to come home for the funeral. And I don't know how I'm going to be able to do that, because I don't have any orders, and I don't have a visa. And it's funny because when I went to the airport in Tokyo, showed them my id and they asked for orders, visa, passport... I said I don't have any of that, but I have to go to a funeral somebody died. The guy, you could tell it was a long day for him, so he just stamped my ticket and told me to go. I got on the plane and landed in New York, came through customs and the exact same thing happened. And that's when I realized, okay, I need to turn myself in. This ain't going to work. And to make a long a story short, when I went to go turn myself in they didn't believe it. I went and they wouldn't lock me up or nothing. It took me three times to convince them.
Morris: Wow.
Elder English: They finally took me and locked me up. So I ended up going to the brig. And it was in the brig… I was in solitary confinement and I was doing push-ups and sit-ups and the Bible. ‘Cause all I had was a mattress on the floor, a toilet and the Bible. I didn't know whether it was day or night. They would slide food up under the opening and periodically the chaplain would visit. I said, "God, I know this is not what you ordained for me. I know that." And I said, "If you get me out of here some kind of way, I ain't gonna say no to you again. I'll be your slave. Whatever you say for me to do, that's what I'll do." And it was shortly after that, I don't know how many days went by, but it was shortly after that, the chaplain came to see me again. He said, "How you doing?" I said, "I'm going nuts." The walls are caving in. And then I told him about the promise I had made to God. And something in me sharing that with him struck a chord with him. God gave me favor. It's the craziest thing, God gave me favor with him [the Chaplain]. And he went to bat for me and got me out of solitary confinement to come to the chapel and sweep the floors and help clean up.
Morris: Oh, wow.
Elder English: Me and that chaplain, we would spend hours and hours just worshiping God. That guy went to my judge and got me an honorable discharge.
Morris: Wow!
Elder English: It changed my whole life around. Got me out, it got my sentence cut. You talk about favor? The craziest thing about it was, I was so excited that God got me out of there and I remembered my promise to Him, but I didn't keep it! As soon as I got out, all that was off, and I went right back into that mess.
Morris: Back… right back.
Elder English: There I go again. But I love God because He's merciful. And so from the age of 18 to about 23 I was hog wild. Cause I grew up in a Christian home, all the stuff I couldn't do, I was trying to set a record. So I was, I was nuts. But God spared my life many times. It's just all kinds of stuff. And then finally I said yes to Him. I got tired of running. I got tired of looking over my shoulder. I got tired and I said you know what; I'm going to go ahead and serve Him. And no, it wasn't as some people have encountered... some people have some divine thing. It was none of that. It was just that I woke up and said, you know what, I'm going to go ahead do this. It was like, I just decided. Like the song said, I Have Decided to Follow Jesus. It was just like that. There was no emotionalism to it. It was simply, I'm just going to go ahead. And I've been running ever since.
Morris: Do you think there was a catalyst for it at all, or is it just really literally you just woke up and just decided that day, today, is the day?
Elder English: Yeah. And it could be a culmination of events. You know, I was struggling, lost. The government took everything I had. I lost all of it. I was newly married, so I wanted to... you know, it's maybe all that, the thinking of I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I had no examples of good marriages. So here I am married, and I don't know what to do, you know, with this lady.
Morris: So between the ages, 18 to 23, you got married?
Elder English: Yes, it was right at the end of my craziness. In fact, it was during my court marshal that my wife, (she wasn't my wife at that time), came out to California where I was going through the court marshal to show some support. We figured that would help. It didn't. But you know, she was trying... And so, it was at the end of that craziness that now I'm looking at this woman, who I had known my whole life. I just woke up and said, okay, you know what, I'm tired of running and I ain't really happy. I thought I was living large, until they confiscated everything. And when you go to court marshal they take all your stuff. So I had nothing to show for it. And that's when I realized I don't want to live a life of no results. I want to have some sort of an impact. I wanted my life to have some significance. And that's when I said, I know I've been called to do greater than this, so I'm going to say yes [to the Lord].
Morris: Wow. So we're at 23 now. Let's bring it a little bit further and find out where you are worshipping now? What's going on? Are you pastoring? Where's your house of worship?
Elder English: Fast forward to that. Well, we went from California to Chicago to Dallas to NY. Right now I am in between assignments as it relates to planting. And throughout that whole process though, that entrepreneurial thing has been incubating, and we've been carrying on for all those years. And I finally got to the pure vein of what God wanted when we were in Chicago. And it's based on the life of Joseph. God had me call it The Wealth Institute. It's a group of people who had gotten together, who pulled our resources to say, as far as I go is as far as everybody else goes. Iron sharpens iron... push each other to excel. We're going excel in economics. We're going to understand how to handle our house. And financially we're going to get out of debt, we're going to pull our credit up. So I traveled doing seminars, you know, on biblical economics. I'm writing a book.
Morris: Oh, praise God.
Elder English: Yeah, my wife is pushing me to get it done. Actually, I've got more than one. But the one that relates to this I'm calling Broke Busters. God had shown me that right out of the scriptures.
Morris: You're getting me excited. Let's talk about the relevancy of the church. What does that mean to you?
Elder English: Well, see I believe that God intended, and the reason why in the scriptures the church was never a religion, or organized religiously, is because it was supposed to be a living organism. It's supposed to be a living thing. Okay. And because edifices, you know, the actual building is a modern day phenomenon. Yes, they had the temple, but there was one of them. There wasn't one on every corner. There was just one, so everyone had to come to that one. So most of the church work in the apostle's day was done in the streets. And that's why when Paul was writing letters he didn't write to the Baptists or to the Pentecostals. He wrote to the church of Ephesus. He addressed the region.
Morris: The entire region, right.
Elder English: And I believe that the sooner the individual church gets back to that, and I think the message in that is that we're supposed to affect our neighborhood. We're supposed to impact our community. So relevance says, my message and my method reflect my community. What am I doing if my message has no reflection, or it has no impact, it doesn't even imitate or look like my community? What am I doing? If my method is out of touch with my community, what am I doing? And we see so many churches where people come through the neighborhood to go to the church. And leave and go back through the neighborhood to their houses, that church does not impact the neighborhood at all. In fact, in a lot of cases that church doesn't even draw from that local community, you know. And so when we're talking about relevance, and we're talking about having a pertinent gospel, we're talking about addressing about people have to deal with.
Morris: So what do you say to the people who say that, "I am God and I change not." That, you know, God established it in the beginning and that's the way it's supposed to be, there are no changes, that are necessary.
Elder English: I say that literacy is critical. I mean ignorance has a voice. You know, and a lot of times, people say things just out of emotion and out of the traditional indoctrination. Well intentioned, they don't mean any harm. But when God says that He is God, He changes not, He is not saying it like when we say He is God, He changes not. We usually are not talking anything about Him when we say that. We're usually talking about some method, some doctrine, or some interpretation. When God says, "I'm God and I change not," He's talking specifically about His purpose, and about His person. Okay. So to say that He doesn't change His method is an indication of not studying the scripture. Because God has used different methods, you know, all throughout the scriptures.
Morris: All throughout.
Elder English: And we've got to remember, and I think where a lot of people miss it, is we forget that our leadership, our leaders, those who have been called to the ministry, called to positions of leadership in the ministry, they are still people. The scripture tells us clearly that we are earthen vessels, we just have a treasure. And sometimes we confuse the two, we act like the treasure is the person. But the treasure is never the vessel. And so sometimes… even Paul says, I'm speaking from the vessel, not from the treasure. And we've got to learn how to determine, you know, the speaker has to learn. As Paul said, I'm talking to you, now this is Paul talking, I'm not talking about divine revelation, I'm not talking about out of the gift that's in me, I'm talking from my logic. And even what he said from his logic made sense. And God allowed him to write it in the scriptures, you understand. So there are times when we'll say something from our logic that does make sense and does work. But we've got to distinguish between the two, so that we don't have people running of using our logic.
Morris: And Paul specified what was his logic.
Elder English: You know what I'm saying? And the scripture says that we'll take traditions of men and act like it's the gospel. And that's what we've done. Because we, the speaker, has not said to people who are listening, this is logic. This is not the gift; this is not what thus said the Lord. Now, this is what I suggest, what I think is going to be good for you. But when we don't do that, and people are listening to our words, and we get up there and we say, God said He don't change, so we ain't singing no new songs, now people run off with that, as if that's how God is operating. And we see that.
Morris: So how do our readers find out more information? How do they get in contact with you guys, what do they do?
Elder English: Probably the best thing is, you know, they can go to the website, or they can email me. My email address Tim@timenglish.net or you can go to www.timenglish.net.
Morris: Alright. Lastly, if you have… what are your final comments? What's the last thing that you want to tell our readers from you to them?
Elder English: Okay. I think if anything, the thing that resonates in me the most is that there is a solution for every situation. And having the expectation of what you're looking for. What are you looking for? If there's a solution that you need today, you should wake up everyday with that thought in your mind, today could be the day that the keys... because he said I'm going to give you the key, he just doesn't say when. And he didn't say what you had to go through to get it. You know, you may have to walk through the valley, you have to go through whatever the case is. But every day you should be looking, today could be the day that the solution comes. This could be the day that my breakthrough comes, whatever that is. So my encouragement to the readers and my encouragement is that there is a solution to no matter what your problem is, no matter what the challenge is, your community, nation, the world. And it's not a cliché, you know, when we say, well, Jesus is the answer!
